Adrienne ([info]simadrienne) wrote,
@ 2006-12-22 10:24:00
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It's not discrimination, it's historical
So there's this thread on [info]roleplayers where a woman is asking for advice about dealing with sexism in the Dungeons and Dragons game she plays. Along with some interesting discussion and good advice about talking to the gamemaster, I noticed variants of a couple of the Great Excuses for Sexism in Gaming:

  1. It happens to men too
  2. It's appropriate for the setting


Maybe later, if I think my brain is up to the bleeding, I'll go dig up one of the many RPGnet threads about gender issues in a game and find Great Excuses 3 through n. Right now, I'm thinking about #2, where objecting to sexism in any vaguely historical setting is unreasonable because "that's the way it really was." I say vaguely because the connection to history can be very loose. For example, in the above-mentioned discussion, the setting of the game was "inspired by the Roman Empire although with some significant differences," and the poster mentioned that soon the group would be heading into the Underdark--which, unless the Underdark has changed a lot in later editions of D&D, is straight-up fantasy. (She also mentioned that the change would be nice because of the "strong powerful women" in the Underdark, but for this post I've decided to avoid the yawning conversational abyss posed by the evil black matriarchy of elves she's talking about.) So, basically, if your fantasy setting sat on a shelf next to a 7th-grade history textbook at some point in its life, it's historical enough that traditional gender roles "should" be in place.


I can think of at least a couple of ways to respond to this idea to explain why it's a bad excuse. The first would be to ask the guys who aren't getting it how they'd feel about playing in a setting where the default governments were matriarchal, where nations ruled by men were depicted as exotic or evil (I'm skirting that abyss, demmit), where male NPCs most commonly showed up in storylines where they were being kidnapped or raped, where male characters could never aspire to any real political power and at best would be well-regarded for rising above their gender... I could go on, but in my experience this tactic doesn't work, because people will line up like birds on a wire to chorus "no, I wouldn't mind that!" secure in the knowledge that it doesn't matter if they mind it, because it'll never happen.

A second way to respond is growing on me, though--an awareness of how lazy this approach to gamemastering is. The laziness comes in two parts: how people think about the setting and how they think about the plot.

The first part applies in any setting where the reign of history isn't complete; that is, where there are some kind of fantasy or alternate history elements to the piece. Here, I find that people can seemingly effortlessly imagine house-sized dragons that can fly, the beautiful and horrific vistas of alternate worlds, all manner of powerful sorceries, and monsters from the mind flayer to the ethereal filcher--indeed, many gamers justifiably pride themselves on their skills of imagination. Somehow, however, these prodigious powers of the mind stop short of picturing women as the equals of men. It just wouldn't be "realistic," you see, and so it won't work for the game. In light of the above examples, "lazy" is about the most charitable (if maybe not the most accurate) label I can think of for this line of thought.

Well, okay, let's say you're playing a game where traditional gender roles are an indispensable component of the setting, and your players are all cool with this. Surely the girls have no grounds for complaint now, right? Well, there's still the matter of the many choices you make about plot. (Or characterization of your NPCs, if you're playing in a game where GM authority is shared to the extent that talking about a premeditated "plot" isn't helpful.) Two of the movies we've watched recently include All About Eve and The Little Foxes. Besides both being great movies, they're the freshest cinema examples in my mind illustrating how fiction about male-dominated times doesn't require its female characters to be footnotes or victims. In the thread that sparked this ranting, someone already noted that I, Claudius shows the absurdity of regarding all Roman women as wimps.

Bringing it back to fantasy fiction, I'm currently in the middle of reading Katharine Kerr's Deverry books. There are some, er, oddities in the plot (paraphrasing Chris, "so the gods care more about the romantic fuckups of these three people than the countless innocents dying in the perpetual wars?"). Nonetheless, I still like the series, in part because the range of the female characters extends at least somewhat beyond "victim" and "man in a dress." Even women who aren't great warriors or wizards are entwined with events that are important to the setting, like when one of the great lords casts his wife off for being barren--and she promptly conceives a child with her consolation-prize second husband, setting off political turmoil as the succession of her first husband's demesne goes up for grabs. Moving to another example, George R. R. Martin's Song of Fire and Ice series features a number of interesting female characters in a reasonable range of roles. (I hear that the fourth book backslid in this regard, but the metric ton of verbiage contained in the first three suffices to get him on my list.)

What's my point? My point is that even if your Kreskin-like powers of visualization don't extend to imagining gender equity in your fantasy societies, you're still being a goddamned lazy git if the only plotlines you can think of for your female NPCs (or PCs) revolve around pregnancy or rape. Watch some Bette Davis movies. Read some Katharine Kerr, Jacqueline Carey, Octavia Butler, or Ursula K. LeGuin. Crazy thought, talk to your players. If, after all that, you can't imagine how women could be equally interesting characters in your history-inspired role-playing games, then at least take pride in your label of sexist, because you've gone the distance for it.



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[info]brand_of_amber
2007-01-10 07:03 pm UTC (link)
Word.

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[info]bruceb
2007-01-10 07:07 pm UTC (link)
This is a subject near and dear to my heart. One of the things we aimed for in Rich Dansky's tenure as line developer for White Wolf's Vampire: The Dark Ages and later with Phil Boulle developing Dark Ages: Vampire was to give full attention to th very wide range of possibilities in medieval society. In particular, for Ashen Knight, a book about vampires and the nobility, we gave space for women as local authorities (and sometimes exercising authority over whole kingdoms), about how a lifestyle of war and crusade for feudal lords inevitably dumped a lot of practical power in the laps of wives and daughters, about societies like Languedoc France of the 12th-14th centuries where women fairly routinely held knighthood and flourished as troubadours, about female war band leaders in heavily fought-over borderlands, and so on. We emphasized that while some situations were unusual, they did happen, and therefore could happen to PCs just as easily to anyone else, with advice on handling unusual-but-not-unprecedent situations for PCs in ways more interesting than everyone else just shutting them down.

Dear Lord the crap we got from fanboys over it. And how very often it came wrapped up in framing paragraphs about how of course they're not sexist or misogynistic at all, it's just that if we allow female PCs to be anything but utter cliches of helplessness, we're pushing political correctness down the players' throats. As it happens, one of my co-authors is a medievalist, and somehow his round-up of readily accessible scholarship (including primary sources) never got very direct responses. The dissenters would just loop back and repeat their original whines again. And again. And again.

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[info]brand_of_amber
2007-01-10 07:10 pm UTC (link)
The irony is many of those citing history are either wrong, just assuming, or citing history that has itself become historical.

Really, it staggers me sometimes how much the Victorian development of history has damaged us 100+ years later.

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[info]bruceb
2007-01-10 07:23 pm UTC (link)
Oh yes. That's the other thing they whined about with our work, our evil postmodernness for pointing out that all accounts are incomplete, that interpretation changes, that all historical conclusions are contingent, and that therefore there is no dogmatic account to be faithful to in all details.

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[info]neelk
2007-01-10 08:26 pm UTC (link)
I've had the same fight at the one-on-one level, where even examples of people like La Maupin could only temporarily silence a whiner. But scaled over the entire fanbase of a game, rather than just one group? Merciful god, I know I don't have the patience or energy to deal with that. You have my deepest sympathies, Bruce.

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[info]simadrienne
2007-01-11 01:02 am UTC (link)
I never checked out DA:V because Vampire was never my favorite White Wolf game, but I might have to poke around on eBay and see what I can find, now. Thanks for the heads-up, and I'm very sorry you got grief over it.

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[info]bruceb
2007-01-11 01:08 am UTC (link)
In fairness, we got happy feedback too. It's just that people with unacknowledged sexist and other biases tend to be a lot fiercer about it than people are just happy to see more potential character types treated as viable and justified.

And it's perfectly okay not to like any of the Dark Ages stuff. :)

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[info]arrefmak
2007-01-11 03:27 am UTC (link)
Nice post. Quoted and referred from my blog. There are a lot of gamers who conflate patriarchal setting with flat female characters.

And then there are the "women in refrigerators" storylines from comics. Ugh.

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[info]simadrienne
2007-01-11 04:45 am UTC (link)
Thanks! It had been building up for a while, so I finally decided to write it down, if only so that I can link to it later when I'm too frustrated to type it all out.

I love comics, and they're way better about a lot of gender things than lots of other geek entertainment I like, but... man. I'm super behind on my reading, so the last major Batman storyline I read was War Games. At the end of it, I turned to my husband and said, "So to impress upon us the seriousness of the plot, they killed the woman and the black man. Huh."

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[info]cathyxypad
2008-07-16 04:16 pm UTC (link)
So if I'm so miserable that I can't get out of bed, saying: "I am healthy and optimistic. " is just going to make me feel worse.

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i played in an rpg
[info]geist_ried
2007-01-11 02:41 pm UTC (link)
I played in an rpg set in a modern feeling though a little in the future world, where women where the ruling class, and it was men who were discrimigated against.
It wasnt a matricacy really as it was just todays world reversed. women acted like men. men acted like women.

It was funny to see the other players (mostly male) dealing with it for a change after all the sexist worlds I had to deal with.

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Re: i played in an rpg
[info]brand_of_amber
2007-01-11 11:21 pm UTC (link)
Back when I was into Tribe 8, I had several male friends refuse to play because the setting is described as being matriarchal.

This was especially funny as they were the kind of guys who were always arguing that women wanting to play in settings where men are in charge should just get over it.

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Re: i played in an rpg
[info]simadrienne
2007-01-12 05:28 am UTC (link)
How long did the game go on, and how well did the other players and the GM handle it? I'm curious because I've never actually seen it happen--I've played in non-sexist settings and in settings where the ruler was a woman, but never one intentionally constructed to be matriarchal.

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Re: i played in an rpg
[info]geist_ried
2007-01-12 09:37 am UTC (link)
Well enough. We lost the odd bad player who didnt get the setting, but it wasnt just because of the women thing, it was also about them not getting the combat tactics and the party turning on them to insure their own in-game survival.

The male GM loves it, he says it makes the game very distinctive. A lot of the male players are really getting into it. One to the point where he really seems to just want to settle down and have babies. Just his choice of women is really poor.

(artical wombs (baby in a jar)) and easy sex change surgery and repoduction changing surgery are available, so he actually could carry the womens babys, you know because they just have that fathers bond, and well the women has to do important work and fight.

The setting doesnt allow males to be sexist to females. (I use male/female rather than women/men as one player is playing an alien.) Because the women controlled miltary and government is violent and dangerous. The entire party could be tortured to death because of it. So the party reacts for its own survival firstly and lastly.

The women president and vice president of america is ridcullously powerful, and I mean ridcullously powerful. In game they just released the largest warspaceship in the galaxy and just got russia to agree to a world government (under americas control).
Its just totally unbeatable, as much as we would like to take them down (for their military acts), not a hope.

In the party itself, I run the leader of the party, Im as much an equalist as you get in this world, which adds a lot of balance. They can get hassel from npcs and enemies, but not from their leader. Our patron is old (so an equalist) so they dont get hassel that way either.

But it is very very funny watching them deal with sexual harassment and not being taken seriously because well.. their men. Men are good at their things (minding the house, fashion, babies) women are good at their things (science, politics, combat, bring home the money.

Very Very funny. I highly recommend you trying a women run world as some point.

Oh ya. There has also been some genetic tampering going on. Women are now naturally more violent and stronger than men. Men are now have a faster baseline (simplely from running away alot as they grew up).

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[info]mechanteanemone
2007-01-11 06:54 pm UTC (link)
I loved your summary of how easy it should be to demolish argument #2... if anyone on the other side of the debate was listening. I've pretty much stopped dropping by forums like RPG.net and theRPGsite because I'm tired of reading and responding to the same debates over and over again, and this is one of them. See for example Cheesecake: Love it or hate it? and [RANT] Cheesecake and Character Images, where I get to be called a Victorian prude for suggesting that female characters can be portrayed as strong, attractive and sexy without being porn stars.

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[info]simadrienne
2007-01-12 05:37 am UTC (link)
Woof. I think I've read both of those threads, or at least as far in them as I could stand. I should take the opportunity to say thank you, since I remember several posters like you and Lolth whose very reasonable words helped me put together some of my own thoughts. So, I'm sorry the frustration got to be too much, but thank you for your posts--at least a few people read them and paid attention.

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[info]emmajeans_place
2007-02-01 08:30 am UTC (link)
I'll drink to this.
Such an awesome post.
I think I'm really lucky with the people I game with - not that I'd stick around if they were being other than good-story tellers.

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[info]simadrienne
2007-02-02 06:02 am UTC (link)
Thanks! I'm actually pretty lucky myself, in my own play--the person I most commonly play with (and who does most of the GMing) is my husband, who has no interest in gender-restricted settings. Except for rare exceptions (like a love interest) he assigns gender to NPCs with a 50-50 split, so I get used to gender equity in my game worlds and then the Internet hits me like a cold bucket of water. :)

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Matriarchal rpg campaigns exist
[info]kaelbane
2007-02-02 02:31 am UTC (link)
I've been running a GURPS campaign with a matriarchal setting since 1991. I've never had a male player quit the game; they have felt very annoyed at their prospects for promotion within the society, of course. This is very much part of the campaign, by the way. The matriarchy isn't worldwide, and within it there are many powerful males that resent the change from the way they think things should be.

Many writers are lazy, and gamers as well. How many times have we seen fantasy worlds rife with magic in which people are still amazed or suspicious of it? I think this "that's the way it was" ("What? In Greyhawk?") is bull, and it reflects the level of misogyny that we see around us every day.

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Re: Matriarchal rpg campaigns exist
[info]simadrienne
2007-02-02 06:10 am UTC (link)
Congratulations on such a long-running game; the longest I've ever played in was a year and a half, so I envy groups like yours.

Now that I'm in a more sympathetic mood than I was when I first posted, I think I even understand the laziess. I mean, few people have the time to consider every detail of a possible setting or prospective plot twist; we end up thinking about the parts that interest or worry us, and trusting the rest to take care of itself. So when I play in a Planescape D&D game, I don't worry about how a city like Sigil handles waste management or how goofy the modrons are, because I enjoy the rest of the setting so much that I don't care. I just wish that a few more gamers would start to notice gender issues, because I don't think it's that hard to fix a problem like that community poster described. It just takes a little shift of perspective. Anyway, I'm rambling a bit now, so I'll hush--thank you for commenting.

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[info]jimboboz
2007-02-14 12:11 am UTC (link)
My opinion is that the woman in the thread which sparked this post, should have her character kill the party and take their stuff.

It's the D&D way, after all! And, "But I was just acting in-character!" is no worse than "but it's historical!"

[Had this post pointed out courtesy jhkim's LJ.]

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(Anonymous)
2007-02-18 05:29 am UTC (link)
Most days, I'm in a kinder, gentler mood, and am all for people talking about their differences. I really think that a decent group will be able to work out a mutally satisfying and respectful solution.

That said, I'll keep your solution in the file for those other days.

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